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Evil Penevil

Bottom Rail On Top 'dis Time, Massa! The Coyote Dancer's Side Of The Story

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Many Pattaya punters regard 10-day agency coyote dancers as objects of disdain, if not outright hatred. These girls have been blamed (and flamed) for everything from wearing too many clothes on stage to ruining the entire Pattaya bar scene.

In fact, comments on the punter boards about agency coyotes have become so extreme I thought it would be useful to post a coyote dancer's side of the story, i.e., what she thinks of the 10-day agency business model and her impression of farang customers' reactions to it. I'm basing what follows on conversations with a coyote dancer with whom I've spent a lot of time over the past three years. She has been a 10-day agency dancer at WhatsUp, Sapphire and most recently, Sensations.

Not surprisingly, she's pretty happy with the agency arrangement. She says she is earning more money and working under better conditions than ever before. She particularly likes that she doesn't have to "show milk or pussy;" that she collects her salary every 10 days and she doesn't have to commit herself to work more than 10 days at a time. She's free to take a break, anywhere from a few days to several months, between 10-day stretches.

Most of all, she feels that the power bar owners, mamasans and customers once held over her has been diminished. She has a stronger sense of self-value and feels she has more control over her life. The sum total of our many hours of talk reminded me of a famous story from the U.S. Civil War. A runaway slave joined the Union Army and one day his unit was guarding a detachment of Confederate prisoners taken in battle. As the shackled Southerners were loaded into box cars for transport to a prisoner-of-war camp, the slave-turned-soldier recognized his former owner among them. "Hello, massa," he said. "Bottom rail on top 'dis time."

I'm not suggesting there's a direct correspondence between the status of slaves in the antebellum U.S. South and pre-coyote bar girls in Thailand, but the bar girls had certainly been the "bottom rail" in P4P transactions. And while coyote dancers aren't necessarily on top these days (except in the cowgirl position), they're on more equal footing with their employers and customers than TBGs ever have been before.

I asked My Source Coyote (MSC from now on) about the following statements, variations of which you can read every day on the punter boards:

  • Because their salaries are so high, coyote dancers are no longer interested in "going" with customers, especially not farang customers;
  • The girls totally ignore farang customers in the bar; at most they'll try to squeeze farang for lady drinks;
  • Coyote dancers don't go "long-time" with customers, i.e., they won't stay overnight;
  • The "girl friend experience" is impossible with a coyote dancer.

Getting MSC's take on these statements led to some long and involved discussions, with frequent use of the translation add-on on her iPhone and my tablet. In the end, I think I got a pretty good idea of what she meant. I didn't agree with everything she said, but on the whole, her comments made a lot of sense to me.

Just to clarify a bit- Over the past three years, I have bar fined My Source Coyote dozens of times. I've traveled with her inside and outside Thailand on trips ranging from overnight to two weeks. She's spent a lot of time with me on her days off and breaks from from the bar. That's given us plenty of opportunity to talk about many things, including the coyote experience from the inside.

And in the interests of full disclosure, mulphy, pattayaman and several other BMs have seen me with MSC quite a few times. She's accompanied me to the Rock House and Wok 'n Rok on several occasions.

OK, let's take the myths one by one:

"Because their salaries are so high, coyote dancers are no longer interested in 'going' with customers, especially not farang customers."

This is one of those propositions to which the answer can be, "Yes. No. Maybe," depending on the circumstances. Yes, the girls, especially coyote dancers, are more selective about their customers than before. That's undoubtedly down to increased prosperity (one result of higher salaries) among the girls. However, agency coyotes are overwhelmingly willing to go with customers, according to MSC. She said she doesn't know of a single agency coyote who never bar fines. Nor is she aware of any girls who knock back farang customers solely because they are farang. She does know some girls who PREFER Asian customers to farang, but MSC associates that preferencemostly with girls who work in "Asian-oriented" bars like Bacarra or SuperBaby, rather than agency coyotes.

Some farang punters are very worried about buying lady drinks for dancers who don't bar fine. so I asked MSC if many customers inquire about her BF status prior to offering her a drink. She said it happens but not often, maybe once or twice a week. The vast majority of the farang she encounters still do things the old-fashioned way, First they'll invite her to have a drink, then they'll ask about her BF-ability.

I was curious to know how she dealt with the few who asked first. How did she reply when someone asked, "Do you go with customers" or "Do you bar fine?" before buying her a LD? Here things got very complicated, as she said she would give different answers to different customers depending on the circumstances. But basically, she said she would answer in the negative: No, she doesn't go with customers. I asked why she would say that, since she clearly does go with customers, including farang.

Again, a very complicated answer since many factors were involved, but essentially she said she regards the guys who "ask first" to be potentially troublesome or unpleasant, so she shuts them down straight away By saying she doesn't go with customers, the conversation ends there. If she had waited and named an excessively high fee as a means of discouraging him, he might try to bargain with her or make an insulting comment about her having a golden fanny.

I followed up by asking, "Why would you suspect the guys who ask about your availability could be troublesome or unpleasant?" Yet again, another complicated answer with many parts. A lot depends on his demeanor, but even more is based on MSC's past experience. She says the questions before a drink is bought seldom stop with, "Do you bar fine?" The customer will then start asking about price, L/T vs S/T, does she take it up the ass and can he cum in her mouth for the same price.

When MSC get hits with that sort of pre-LD barrage of questions, she usually answers in one fashion. She points in the direction of Beach Road and says, "Beach that way." What she means is that BR freelancers reach deals with customers "on standing foot" and without a LD. In a bar with coyote dancers, things are done differently.

Bottom line: If you are aggressive or appear overly reluctant to buy an agency coyote a drink, you may hear from her that she doesn't go with customers. That may not be true at all; it can be her way of telling you she thinks you in particular would be an unrewarding customer.

I don't want my posts in this thread to sound too harsh. That's why I've emphasized that MSC's answers were complicated. I've left out a lot of what she said for the sake of brevity and to cut to the chase as much as possible. What comes across loud and clear from her is that she has few "across-the-board" responses that apply to all potential customers. Everything is situational and individual to her, nor is there any universality or conformity in her answers to would-be customers. What she says to one farang in terms of bar fining may be very different to the answer she gives another farang five minutes later.

The notion that WS go go bars are filled with girls who won't "go" with customers is a mistaken one. Very often, one-offs and extreme outliers are given far too much prominence on the punter boards. A second- or third-hand report from an anonymous source about a girl who refused a BF or asks for silly money morphs into statements like, "WS girls won't go with customers anymore or are asking 7,000 baht for L/T," as though it were a general trend and not a rare case.

Since the days of the Vietnam War, Thai bar girls have been using high prices or the "I no go" excuse as a polite way of knocking back customers. Both are ways of saving the customer face. Nothing new or different about that. A girl who asks 7,000 baht of one customer may be willing to accept 2,000 baht from another customer. And a girl who tells a customer she doesn't go may well ask the same guy to BF her another night. Very little is written in stone in the Pattaya bar world.

I am aware that there are credible reports of a handful of girls who never go with any customers, no matter how much money is offered them. What's more accurate to say is that these girls are extremely selective and can be unwilling to accept new customers at any price. But here we're talking about five or 10 girls in all of Pattaya, a "statistically insignificant" number in terms of the several thousand girls who work on WS and the 20,000-30,000 in Pattaya as a whole.

Bottom line: The overwhelming majority of coyote dancers working on WS or elsewhere in Pattaya are eager to be bar fined. You just have to use the right approach.

More to come later.

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Interesting but if I am honest all the answers you got would be expected by me. I wouldn't really see the girl saying anything else in a comfortable Q and A situation away from the bar.

I do agree that a girl can use certain falsehoods to ward off unwanted customers but that has always been the way with a girl who is popular.

Of course some beer bar girls may still go with a customer despite his demands and financial offering, needs must sometimes.

You have been able to gauge info from a friend, somebody who knows you and feels comfortable with you. Many tourists here for entertainment don't all have the luxury of time in developing a favourable understanding with a girl, their experiences may still call into question your friend's respectfull and thought out answers even when they behave in a suitable manner or in offering a reasonable reward for her/others services.

Being able to control her ability to derive revenue by creating her own business plan is ideal for her. The fact she can refuse customers based on financial need, choice of 'decent' partner is good for her but not necessarily for all the guys still expecting a sex partner in the sin city known as Pattaya.

Good for her though.

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Interesting but if I am honest all the answers you got would be expected by me. I wouldn't really see the girl saying anything else in a comfortable Q and A situation away from the bar.

I do agree that a girl can use certain falsehoods to ward off unwanted customers but that has always been the way with a girl who is popular.

Of course some beer bar girls may still go with a customer despite his demands and financial offering, needs must sometimes.

You have been able to gauge info from a friend, somebody who knows you and feels comfortable with you. Many tourists here for entertainment don't all have the luxury of time in developing a favourable understanding with a girl, their experiences may still call into question your friend's respectfull and thought out answers even when they behave in a suitable manner or in offering a reasonable reward for her/others services.

Being able to control her ability to derive revenue by creating her own business plan is ideal for her. The fact she can refuse customers based on financial need, choice of 'decent' partner is good for her but not necessarily for all the guys still expecting a sex partner in the sin city known as Pattaya.

Good for her though.

But is it Dave? Why doesn't She just get a normal job and not tease and take Ladydrinks in return for a punters expectations.

Agency girls should be wearing badges telling the paying customer that they are agency girls.

Last time I was in WS I was told flatly after buying one girl a few drinks "I don't barfine I have money" well in that case She should be wearing a badge telling customers this. I'd be a few 100 Baht better off.

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Guest fulhamster

But is it Dave? Why doesn't She just get a normal job and not tease and take Ladydrinks in return for a punters expectations.

Agency girls should be wearing badges telling the paying customer that they are agency girls.

Last time I was in WS I was told flatly after buying one girl a few drinks "I don't barfine I have money" well in that case She should be wearing a badge telling customers this. I'd be a few 100 Baht better off.

Agreed - yes I know you are buying drinks for their time with you, however most punters will be expecting to bf the girl, unless she has already told them that she doesn't do bf's only ld's.

It can only cause resentment towards both the girl and the bar, which is no good for either as punters will vote with their feet.

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But is it Dave? Why doesn't She just get a normal job and not tease and take Ladydrinks in return for a punters expectations.

Agency girls should be wearing badges telling the paying customer that they are agency girls.

Last time I was in WS I was told flatly after buying one girl a few drinks "I don't barfine I have money" well in that case She should be wearing a badge telling customers this. I'd be a few 100 Baht better off.

I agree there really shouldn't be all these tiers for customers to deal with. It gets confusing for guys who mostly expect to buy drinks for a girl, get her out of the door and have some fun for a reasonable price without any negative negotiations involved.

Some guys have obviously decided the difficulty in achieving the above pursuit now prevents them even bothering getting on a flight to Thailand.

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Agreed - yes I know you are buying drinks for their time with you, however most punters will be expecting to bf the girl, unless she has already told them that she doesn't do bf's only ld's.

It can only cause resentment towards both the girl and the bar, which is no good for either as punters will vote with their feet.

Exactly. I've never been back there.

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I agree there really shouldn't be all these tiers for customers to deal with. It gets confusing for guys who mostly expect to buy drinks for a girl, get her out of the door and have some fun for a reasonable price without any negative negotiations involved. Some guys have obviously decided the difficulty in achieving the above pursuit now prevents them even bothering getting on a flight to Thailand.

We have forum members who either went Home or aren't fussed about coming back because of this.

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Nice post Evil !

As you say, things are never clear cut, and usually very.complicated (as everything Asian)

Could write a lot more, but a bit tired. Conclusion after MSC comments : with a bit of "seduction" one will have more chance than with the "meat shop" approach.

I usually attacked.the most "bad" girls, but over several evenings ended up with what I wanted.

Granted, a 2 weeks tourist did not come for that.

Edit : It has NOTHING to do with the number of ladydrinks.

Edited by thai spice

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A well written report with how things are on the other side of the pole.

For me it's very simple. See something you like, invite her over, introduce yourself and say you would like to pay her bar fine, have a few drinks together then leave in the next however many minutes.

Be polite, act like an adult and see if what you want is actually on offer. No big deal for either party.

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Agency girls should be wearing badges telling the paying customer that they are agency girls

Some agency girls go,some don't.Not strictly black and white mate.

All it means is they are on short term contracts.Plenty do go with customers.Barfined some myself.

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I think your post just reinforces what many farangs are saying .

to me it would appear your source and many of her ilk have a very high opinion of themselves and an ego the size of a large planet .

bottom line is they are prostitutes , hookers , whores .

none of the 3 descriptions are people I look up to , respect or aspire to be like .

she should count herself lucky she can get work selling her overpriced pussy in bars or online because I ll bet a dollar to a cent she hasn't got the education , talent or money to do anything else .

so for me at least , I wouldn't give her or any of her type a minute of my time never mind a drink .

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Agency girls should be wearing badges telling the paying customer that they are agency girls.

PM, for that you have the massage parlors, the fish bowls, left on the line they dont go ass, right of the line they do.

Or Soi 6, many places to find meat. In BKK, on a Sat on Sunday morning if I want a BJ, I know where to go, I don't bother about her name, her family, her past, her whatever.... I go in, order a beer, girl come offer me her services, I like her I say yes, I dont like her I tell her no, and she sends me the next one in the line.

Keep it simple.

Yep, one day you'll find the right one (remember, the one "who is different"....) but dont hunt her...... let nature do it for you.

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I think your post just reinforces what many farangs are saying .

to me it would appear your source and many of her ilk have a very high opinion of themselves and an ego the size of a large planet .

bottom line is they are prostitutes , hookers , whores .

none of the 3 descriptions are people I look up to , respect or aspire to be like .

she should count herself lucky she can get work selling her overpriced pussy in bars or online because I ll bet a dollar to a cent she hasn't got the education , talent or money to do anything else .

so for me at least , I wouldn't give her or any of her type a minute of my time never mind a drink .

With respect as a mate, I will not answer that post.

But remember that 90% of the guys end up with one ......."the different one"

Yep there is sure a diamond here and there...... but I am not going to spend 100's of LD to find search for her.

If it happens, well , why not try ......

PS : Doesn't mean that "good girls" are better.......

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The problem with the 10 day girls lies on the fact that they have to actually earn that wage for the bar as well. What hits the girls really hard is the 200 baht deductions for every missed drink on their quota, even though they could make up for this loss and be on top by going for 1 LT (you might think that math isn't their strong point but loss aversion is a quite interesting topic, where James Kaufmann has done a lot of work. This is the same James Kaufmann that denies that he wrote the letter to Dr Laura that som nam na posted earlier!). Surprisingly though they understand that LT is a lot more work than ST and isn't worthy it for double the money, not to mention they can get back to their bar and collect LD vouchers.

What isn't mentioned here though and is really important is that the 10day girls don't get any money from the barfine fee. They don't have a barfine quota as well, so they don't feel any pressure towards barfining. This suits a small minority of girls who don't barfine, but these girls are few and far between. However girls realise that if a customer can afford to pay a high 1.5-2K barfine, then he can also afford to pay them at least double this money for their own fee. Girls that aren't barfinable usually means too expensive (and not worth it) to barfine, 99% of the time.

This isn't sustainable though. as punters don't want to travel halfway through the world for little reward. End result is the very slow season, as punters either stay at home or move to greener pastures. Girls at the same time find it hard to earn a baht, so they take trips to Singapore, Korea or the Middle East.

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for me , if not anyone else , I feel these girls forget they are supposed to be in a service industry there to service the customer .

nowadays it appears these girls think the customer is there to service them .

have you not seen some of them online on the likes of facebook brazently telling people to come my bar and by me drinks coz ive a target to make .

they seem to have forgotten they are supposed to earn these drinks .

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for me , if not anyone else , I feel these girls forget they are supposed to be in a service industry there to service the customer .

nowadays it appears these girls think the customer is there to service them .

have you not seen some of them online on the likes of facebook brazently telling people to come my bar and by me drinks coz ive a target to make .

they seem to have forgotten they are supposed to earn these drinks .

100% why Pattaya is dead and buried. But this is their 'True' light. They despise us they only tolerate us for money and when the disguise falls off they hate us even more. I'm NOT wrong.

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100% why Pattaya is dead and buried. But this is their 'True' light. They despise us they only tolerate us for money and when the disguise falls off they hate us even more. I'm NOT wrong.

:yes

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Agency girls are only good for eye candy. Not worth a drink for their company unless a BF is intended. Check before you buy.

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Agency girls are only good for eye candy. Not worth a drink for their company unless a BF is intended. Check before you buy.

Not just agency girls the "I no go with customer" disease is widespread. I was boozing in Soi Chayapoom after the pool match last night and I mentioned a barfine after buying 5 ladydrinks to a girl.

"I young Lady" She said. She was 27 years old but only interested in being a drink collector. Naw, it's fecked.

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Meat market has evolved. Girls can be much choosy in what they do and whom they go with these days.Adapt, try harder, or don't bother

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Not just agency girls the "I no go with customer" disease is widespread. I was boozing in Soi Chayapoom after the pool match last night and I mentioned a barfine after buying 5 ladydrinks to a girl.

"I young Lady" She said. She was 27 years old but only interested in being a drink collector. Naw, it's fecked.

In Soi Chock-a-Pom that's a serious state of affairs considering 50% of the Soi is 'dodgy' massage parlours.

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Meat market has evolved. Girls can be much choosy in what they do and whom they go with these days.Adapt, try harder, or don't bother

just don't buy them drinks or tip unless they f**k , simple .

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